When I use the term "relevance" it has nothing to do with your opinions regarding the golf swing. Your opinions regarding the golf swing are as relevant as any other forum member's opinions.
What I find irrelevant are all your opinions regarding my attitude and motives (eg. allegations of arrogance or boorsishness or secret/unwholesome agendas).
. . .
The main reason why I have been banned on other golf forums is because I unhesitatingly question every forum member's expressed opinion - irrespective of their "expert" status.
Jeff,
I have specifically asked Golfgnome to refrain from further engagement on this thread and in this forum. His talents and time are too valuable to waste in further unproductive interaction here.
. . .
I am both founder of LynnBlakeGolf.com and one of its resident experts. Hear me: I do not fear your questioning attitude or your exhaustive posts (you are right a lot, and you are wrong a lot). At the same time, I will not allow you to dominate my site and obscure its mission. Hence, I have not banned you, but instead have established your own appreciated -- but necessarily quarantined -- presence here.
I hope that you perceive no personal slight because I question the relevance of those photos of Tiger Woods regarding the question-issue of the appropriate "clubshaft orbit through the impact zone".
I will restate my position in a different fashion. At impact, the idea of a clubshaft plane with its base on the ball-target line has no relevance because one doesn't hit the ball with the hosel (heel) of the club. At impact, the baseline of any theoretical clubshaft plane must be inside the ball-target line, so that the sweetspot can hit the ball. In other words, at impact the only plane of practical relevance is the PP#3-sweetspot plane. We agree on that point.
We even agree that during the early takeaway that one could use the imaginary PP#3-sweetspot axis line to trace the ball-target line (SPL).
I only think of the "clubshaft being on-plane" concept as being relevant because it helps a golfer move the clubhead in an arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line, and that results in an in-to-square-to-in clubhead swingarc that is perfectly symmetrical with respect to the ball-target line. To achieve that goal, a golfer must focus his attention on the clubshaft. From my perspective, one could also use a dowel stick (which doesn't have a clubhead) to train a golfer to swing the clubshaft on-plane (where the end of the dowel stick nearest the ground always points at the ball-target line - except when the dowel stick is parallel to the ball-target line). In Lynn's Alignment Golf DVD there is a drill performed by VJ Trolio where he runs the clubshaft along a railing (made of PVC tubing) that is about 18" high. Isn't that drill supposed to help a golfer acquire a sense/feel of being on-plane through the impact zone? In that drill, it is the clubshaft which is tracing a SPL, and not the imaginary PP#3-sweetspot axis line. Hopefully, all golfers understand that the drill is only an approximation because there is a subtle difference in the sweetspot plane, relative to the clubshaft plane, in the immediate vicinity of the ball.
Finally, in my mind, I can hold the following mental image. I can mentally imagine the clubshaft tracing a SPL through the impact zone (in the manner that I described VJ Trolio's low-fence drill), but I also simultaneously realize that the SPL must actually be inside the ball at impact (and not through the center of the ball). I can then readily mentally picture the clubface closing during the release swivel phase and followthrough phase and I can mentally picture the sweetspot path being slighly curved as the clubhead moves through the impact zone. It "feels" is as if the clubhead toe is rotating around the hosel (while the hosel traces the SPL).
I can also think of the same situation using an alternative mental image. I can imagine the PP#3-sweetspot axis line (not the clubshaft) tracing the SPL, which then forces me to imagine that the hosel tracks along an inward curved path through the impact zone. I find this mental image disconcerting - because I cannot really imagine the hosel curving inwards (towards the toes) as it moves from the third parallel position to the fourth parallel position. Can you really imagine the hosel of the club following an inward curved path as it moves through the impact zone - while your hand thrust is down-and-out-and forward?
Yoda - I respect your decision to quarantine me here. I harbor no ill-feelings. I think that's it's a good decision because I have an irrepressible urge to pursue my arguments to the nth degree, and I can easily understand how my behavior can upset many forum members if I dominate the threads.
I hope that you realize that I enjoy participating in your delegated forum because i) I respect your tolerance for alternative opinions (even if you think that they are wrong) and ii) because I always hope to sometimes be proven wrong (so that I can learn something new). My ultimate goal remains a relentless probing of golf swing issues so that I can better understand the mechanics, biomechanics and physics of the golf swing - while I simultaneously try to avoid indulging in unproductive ad hominem attacks.
I hope that you perceive no personal slight because I question the relevance of those photos of Tiger Woods regarding the question-issue of the appropriate "clubshaft orbit through the impact zone".
I will restate my position in a different fashion. At impact . . .
Jeff,
As I did with Golfgnome, I have asked YodasLuke to disengage from this Forum. He is a generous, but working professional with a limited amount of discretionary time. In my judgement, that time is largely wasted here.
My Contributing Professionals are here with a purpose; namely, to help our readers and students play better golf. My observation has been that their participation in your Forum rarely contributes to that purpose.
Could you please expand on your belief that the clubshaft rotates about the COG of the clubhead?
When I swing a golf club or a hockey stick across the front of my torso, I can see the clubface closing so that the toe of the club eventually passes the heel. I can also see that the clubshaft hosel has a rounded arc motion. However, I cannot see the clubshaft rotating around the COG of the clubhead. Where should I be looking to see that phenomenon happening?
Jeff.
The best swing example I can think of is Ben Doyle's 'full roll'. He gets the clubface basically pointing back down at the ground through both arms straight.
As the toe is passing the heel, the shaft has to move 'out' around the sweetspot, if it didn't, you would be blocking or off plane.
Even thought Ben's finish swivel is more than most, his hinge action can still be correct, because hinge action is only in effect from impact to separation.
In the example of the stick/string - that has no offset of the clubface from the shaft, so there would be only one line of pull. A golf club has shaft droop - because the physics are trying to align the clubface/head with the line of pull, which is offset from the shaft.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
I don't know why you state that a hinging action only lasts for the duration of ball-clubface contact. It is my understanding that a hinging action continues to the end of the followthorugh (when both arms are straight) and that there can be no clubface roll-over towards the ground during that time period - because that would represent a swivel action and it is my understanding that a swivel action should only occur during the finish phase of the swing and not during the followthrough phase of the swing.
The effect of a hinging action on the ball is obviously over when the ball leaves the clubface but the golfer is still performing the motions of a hinging action until the end of the followthrough. Also, the biomechanical motions of a swiveling action should not occur prior to the completion of the followthrough - which means that there should be no supination of the left hand during the followthrough phase.
You wrote-: "As the toe is passing the heel, the shaft has to move 'out' around the sweetspot, if it didn't, you would be blocking or off plane."
If the shaft is moving out, does it still remain in contact with a low rail about 18" above the ground? Homer descibed that idea in his book (somewhere) and VJ Trolio demonstrates it in Yoda's Alignment Golf DVD.
If the shaft is moving out, does it still remain in contact with a low rail about 18" above the ground? Homer descibed that idea in his book (somewhere) and VJ Trolio demonstrates it in Yoda's Alignment Golf DVD.
Jeff.
Luke already alluded to this point.
Analogies, however good are always somewhat flawed. So too with plane boards, rails, benches.
Linear Mode
